From solinym at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 01:29:05 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Sat Oct 1 00:03:42 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <20050926001519.GA32220@mail.fortuitous.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> Message-ID: > >>cd /usr/src/linux Doesn't exist to start with, somewhat of a stumbling block for newbies. > >>make menuconfig > >>pick your options > >>make dep ; make clean > >>make bzImage > >>make modules > >>make modules_install Although this certainly works, don't most distros have some kind of kernel-source package that you can [should] install? -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From solinym at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 01:29:50 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Sat Oct 1 00:04:09 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <43381589.60503@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <20050926042540.58701.qmail@web50112.mail.yahoo.com> <1127732108.26102.10.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <43381589.60503@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: > Anyone out there using Raid and/or LVM? Anyone have any experience with > Reiser4? Anyone feel like giving a presentation on Raid and/or LVM > and/or Reiser4? I'm using dm-raid and LVM and dm-crypt... -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From bdubbs at swbell.net Sat Oct 1 08:48:43 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Sat Oct 1 07:22:57 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <20050926001519.GA32220@mail.fortuitous.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> Message-ID: <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> Travis H. wrote: > Although this certainly works, don't most distros have some kind of > kernel-source package Yes. But why should one use it? Do they modify the source? You have to wait for them to repackage the kernel source. Building the kernel produces the image (usually bzImage), System.map, and (perhaps) files in the /lib/modules tree. In fact, all distros that I know of use modules by default. I only use modules when I have to--when there is a proprietary driver like nvidia. There is no reason for an *individual* to use modules otherwise. IMO, the package paradigm is for those who don't really want to bother with source or don't know enough to use source. In the first case, one just installs the binary. In the second, one shouldn't be building from source anyway. -- Bruce From jtiner at gvtc.com Sat Oct 1 09:26:35 2005 From: jtiner at gvtc.com (James Tiner) Date: Sat Oct 1 07:55:39 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> Message-ID: <1128173195.7611.6.camel@linux.tiner.org> Most distro's don't install the sources by default. you might need them if you are trying to install a package from source, though. on Mandriva, you can open a shell and type 'urpmi kernel-source' and that should install it for you. I always install the source package because it never hurts to have it handy. but remember, when you upgrade the kernel, you have to upgrade the source package as well. I forgot to do that and when i installed a wireless card recently and forgot that I had upgraded the kernel. took me an extra 20 minutes to get it working because of that. ended up having to start over from the beginning of the ndiswrapper install... On Sat, 2005-10-01 at 00:29 -0500, Travis H. wrote: > > >>cd /usr/src/linux > > Doesn't exist to start with, somewhat of a stumbling block for newbies. > > > >>make menuconfig > > >>pick your options > > >>make dep ; make clean > > >>make bzImage > > >>make modules > > >>make modules_install > > Although this certainly works, don't most distros have some kind of > kernel-source package that you can [should] install? > -- > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- > GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > From pac at fortuitous.com Sat Oct 1 22:34:41 2005 From: pac at fortuitous.com (Phil Carinhas) Date: Sat Oct 1 21:08:51 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <20050926001519.GA32220@mail.fortuitous.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> Message-ID: <20051002023441.GA18164@mail.fortuitous.com> On Sat, Oct 01, 2005 at 12:29:05AM -0500, Travis H. wrote: > > >>cd /usr/src/linux > > Doesn't exist to start with, somewhat of a stumbling block for newbies. Many of us use kernel.org (korg) kernels to compile, and we do it from a folder in a normal (non-root) account. That may not seem convenient, moral, satisfying, or logical to someone. You only need to do these types of commands as root ($$ = prompt): $$ make modules_install $$ cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vm2612.3 $$ vi /boot/grub/menu.lst $$ shutdown -r now Why do we do the OTHER stuff as regluar joe? Mainly security. If something goes really wrong, or we make a typo, the worst that can happen is a messed up account. Don't do anything as root that you can do as a regular joe; that's the (unspoken) law. -p .--------------------------------------------------------. | Philip A. Carinhas | http://fortuitous.com | | Fortuitous Technologies | Linux Consulting & Training | `--------------------------------------------------------' From bdubbs at swbell.net Sat Oct 1 22:56:12 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Sat Oct 1 21:30:20 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <20051002023441.GA18164@mail.fortuitous.com> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <20050926001519.GA32220@mail.fortuitous.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <20051002023441.GA18164@mail.fortuitous.com> Message-ID: <433F4C4C.6040809@swbell.net> Phil Carinhas wrote: > Many of us use kernel.org (korg) kernels to compile, and we do > it from a folder in a normal (non-root) account. That may not seem > convenient, moral, satisfying, or logical to someone. > You only need to do these types of commands as root ($$ = prompt): > > $$ make modules_install > $$ cp arch/i386/boot/bzImage /boot/vm2612.3 > $$ vi /boot/grub/menu.lst > $$ shutdown -r now > > Why do we do the OTHER stuff as regluar joe? Mainly security. > If something goes really wrong, or we make a typo, the worst that > can happen is a messed up account. Don't do anything as root that > you can do as a regular joe; that's the (unspoken) law. Well put. -- Bruce From thomas.cameron at camerontech.com Sun Oct 2 00:10:30 2005 From: thomas.cameron at camerontech.com (Thomas Cameron) Date: Sat Oct 1 22:41:59 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] OT:300bps, n, 8, i(terminal mode or ascii download) In-Reply-To: <433C2345.80203@ednaisd.org> References: <433C2345.80203@ednaisd.org> Message-ID: <1128226230.24364.24.camel@ml110.redhat.com> On Thu, 2005-09-29 at 12:24 -0500, Dennis Myhand wrote: > Recently this song title, "300bps, n, 8, i(terminal mode or ascii > download)", popped up in the discussion on this list and someone listed > the way to demodulate the track into a song. Could that person please > send the instructions to me? I have the mp3 and I would like to do > this. Thanks, Dennis http://www.cse.msu.edu/~sanfor22/ From thomas.cameron at camerontech.com Sun Oct 2 00:13:59 2005 From: thomas.cameron at camerontech.com (Thomas Cameron) Date: Sat Oct 1 22:45:26 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] OT:300bps, n, 8, i(terminal mode or ascii download) In-Reply-To: <433C2345.80203@ednaisd.org> References: <433C2345.80203@ednaisd.org> Message-ID: <1128226439.24364.26.camel@ml110.redhat.com> On Thu, 2005-09-29 at 12:24 -0500, Dennis Myhand wrote: > Recently this song title, "300bps, n, 8, i(terminal mode or ascii > download)", popped up in the discussion on this list and someone listed > the way to demodulate the track into a song. Could that person please > send the instructions to me? I have the mp3 and I would like to do > this. Thanks, Dennis Better one: http://www.kempa.com/blog/archives/000053.html From dmyhand at cox-internet.com Sun Oct 2 06:21:34 2005 From: dmyhand at cox-internet.com (Dennis Myhand) Date: Sun Oct 2 04:56:39 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] OT:300bps, n, 8, i(terminal mode or ascii download) In-Reply-To: <1128226439.24364.26.camel@ml110.redhat.com> References: <433C2345.80203@ednaisd.org> <1128226439.24364.26.camel@ml110.redhat.com> Message-ID: <1128248494.3761.20.camel@localhost.localdomain> On Sat, 2005-10-01 at 23:13 -0500, Thomas Cameron wrote: > Better one: > > http://www.kempa.com/blog/archives/000053.html > > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug Thanks, I deeply appreciate it. From adam at npjh.com Sun Oct 2 16:49:17 2005 From: adam at npjh.com (Adam Flott) Date: Sun Oct 2 15:22:02 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings Message-ID: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> Hello all, Ths site FAQ says you meet on the second Wednesday of every month at 6:30. Is this still true? Unfortunately I have class from 6:30 to 9:15 on Mondays and Wednesdays and wouldn't be able to attend, but I would like to get involved and meet other people with a Linux/Unix interest. Am I out of luck? Thanks, Adam From karl at oelschlaeger.ws Sun Oct 2 17:51:05 2005 From: karl at oelschlaeger.ws (Karl Oelschlaeger) Date: Sun Oct 2 16:24:55 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Linux friendly digital audio cards Message-ID: <1128289865.3916.119.camel@localhost.localdomain> Hi all, I'm hunting for a good audio card that will do SPDIF, either optical or coaxial. I've been to the OSS compatibility site and found a card that matches my criteria (except for the price), but I was curious if anyone had a favorite make or model. Any recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks, Karl Oelschlaeger. From rl at well.com Sun Oct 2 19:25:17 2005 From: rl at well.com (Ray Lopez) Date: Sun Oct 2 19:59:21 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] SATLUG.org domain Message-ID: I don't know what the final resolution was on the domain issue, but as another founder of SATLUG I would be happy to take over administration and financial obligations of the SATLUG domain. Also, I have been using Wordpress (http://wordpress.org) on my own site for blogging and conent management. It has a very robust feature set and would be ideal for use as the content management system for satlug.org. It is very easy to set up and would not require any shell access to the server. -- Ray Lopez, Ph.D. rl@well.com 210.385.9369 From storey at clamp.ws Mon Oct 3 00:16:22 2005 From: storey at clamp.ws (Storey Clamp) Date: Sun Oct 2 22:51:34 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> Message-ID: <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> > Hello all, > > Ths site FAQ says you meet on the second Wednesday of every month at > 6:30. Is this still true? Unfortunately I have class from 6:30 to 9:15 > on Mondays and Wednesdays and wouldn't be able to attend, but I would > like to get involved and meet other people with a Linux/Unix interest. > Am I out of luck? > > Thanks, > > Adam There was a period in time when the meetings were alternated between Wednesday an Thursday for the benifit of members who had night classes, but since the chosen few who have access to the web site stubbornly refuse to keep it up dated or let any one else do it, we can only guess when the next meeting will occur. Cheers, Storey From chuck at tetlow.net Mon Oct 3 01:09:01 2005 From: chuck at tetlow.net (Chuck) Date: Sun Oct 2 23:43:07 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> Message-ID: <1128316143.9367.2167.camel@laptop> You know -- I'm getting DAMN SICK of people bitching about webpages!!! I work my ass off for months now trying to set up a deal to get us a new machine -- so we can load it with new software and provide better access to the site for updating. Yet, some people harp over and over about the website. They don't DO a damn thing -- they just bitch about it. Tell you what -- I'm tired of hearing about it. If this is how things are going to continue, I'll just post all my passwords for the server on this list. They we'll see if the complainers do anything! I'll bet not!!! Its easier to just complain. IF you want to do something CONSTRUCTIVE -- make up what ever "update" you want to the website and send it to the President. He is up keeping the webpages and can post your update. But if you just want to complain -- take it ELSEWHERE! Chuck On Sun, 2005-10-02 at 23:16, Storey Clamp wrote: > Hello all, > > Ths site FAQ says you meet on the second Wednesday of every month at > 6:30. Is this still true? Unfortunately I have class from 6:30 to 9:15 > on Mondays and Wednesdays and wouldn't be able to attend, but I would > like to get involved and meet other people with a Linux/Unix interest. > Am I out of luck? > > Thanks, > > Adam There was a period in time when the meetings were alternated between Wednesday an Thursday for the benifit of members who had night classes, but since the chosen few who have access to the web site stubbornly refuse to keep it up dated or let any one else do it, we can only guess when the next meeting will occur. Cheers, Storey _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug From chuck at tetlow.net Mon Oct 3 03:27:23 2005 From: chuck at tetlow.net (Chuck) Date: Mon Oct 3 02:01:35 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Distribution of SATLUG group duties Message-ID: <1128324445.22489.38.camel@laptop> Hi Everyone, I'm thinking its about time to start passing out some of the SATLUG responsibilities and duties I've still got -- mainly because of lack of my time. I've been putting in forty to fifty hours each week for three weeks with the Red Cross -- running the communications into the refugee shelters. I've also been working each weekend this month (until this one) with the Civil Air Patrol and have taken on the job of local Squadron Commander for a while. In all, I've had paying work put off and pushed back by all the volunteer work I'm doing -- and that can't continue. And I won't even mention the personal/home work that has come to a complete stop while I've been volunteering my time. So, I'd like to shed some of my SATLUG duties to others. We need: 1) Someone to take this Dell demo computer, store it, and bring it to the local Computer Blasts. Doesn't take much. But the computer wasn't at the last one because I worked a CAP Search & Rescue exercise all weekend this month. No real experience needed for this job. 2) Someone to take over the maillist management. This DOES take some time. Our maillist is hit literally hundreds of times each day with SPAM, hack attempts, and other malicious stuff. But mixed in with it is just a few legitimate e-mails. That list has to be sorted through at least once a week to find the legitimate ones and approve them -- and throw away the rest. Its not automatic, it has to be done manually for EACH of the three maillists -- SATLUG, SATLUG-ETC, Officers. The same person who takes over that duty should set up a mail account that the server can send notifications to. The server sends out a notification when those pieces of shit SPAM come in. And it sends out reminders of how many "pending moderator requests" there are to sort through. Mixed in with that junk mail is some valid e-mails and notifications of subscriptions/unsubscriptions to the lists. Same type of sorting should be done here at least weekly. This job doesn't need much background/experience -- just spare time to do it. 3) Someone to take over administration of the SATLUG server. Most of it is automatic. But there are a few idiosyncrasies due to the custom build done by Matt, Matt, and Bob. These cause problems with log files that grow to hundreds of megabytes occasionally and cause the maillist to stop working. Also, this person gets to be the "Server NAZI". I'm tired of yelling at people to clean their e-mail off the server and not use it for storage. I've never followed through with my threats to just wipe all mail on the server -- but I SHOULD have done it many times. When people allow their e-mail to back up too much on the server, it stops accepting any e-mail and all the list functions come to a halt again. This person **HAS** to be VERY Linux knowledgeable. As I mentioned, the last time this box was rebuilt -- it was a custom job done by three security experts. Because of it -- things are not in their usual spots and a lot of "normal" things don't work the same. So, unless we shortly get our new server and load it -- we need a very Linux knowledgeable person for this job. 4) Our President needs to appoint a SATLUG Treasurer. I've still got all the SATLUG financial and bank records after leaving the President's job. There should be a Treasurer on the BOD who will store these records, take in new funds, handle the bank account, and write checks for BOD approved expenditures. No real Linux experience needed for this job -- but the person has to be appointed by the President. 5) Domain/DNS administration. I don't mind hanging onto this job if the President/BOD would like me to. It doesn't demand much time and I already know how we've got it set up. But I'll leave that decision to the President/BOD. 6) SATLUG show banners has recently been handled by someone else (sorry, I've forgotten who has them). I'd like make that hand-off permanent if they can take that responsibility. 7) P.O.C. for O'Reilly. Each quarter, I receive a box of O'Reilly catalogs. And occasionally, I receive a box of their books out of the blue. If we had someone who could spend some occasional time working with O'Reilly and putting their little "supported by" link on our home page -- we would receive a lot more freebie books from O'Reilly. It just takes some time. No Linux experience needed -- just an e-mail account and willingness to smoogie their advertising department. 8) P.O.C. for other companies. I just received a box of ~30 Linux Journal magazines. They are just one of the companies I contacted while still President and they are FINALLY getting back to us. Well, at least they sent current magazines -- they are the September issue. I'll get them to the next meeting or to someone before that time for distribution. But we need someone else to play POC with this company and all the others we've been getting freebies from. I'll continue my efforts with Rackspace attempting to get hardware for our new server. I don't want to drop this job while in mid-effort. It would take too long for someone else to pick up the pieces. But after we get the box and get it on-line -- the BOD needs to find some new system administrators. After the Matts and Bob punched out (and we lost our friend Bram), I've handled the server alone until I was able to set up access for Othniel. This job REALLY needs to have two or three individuals who understand how the system works and keep close coordination on changes. That way, if one person is unavailable -- emergencies aren't put off. If anyone who would be willing to step up to the SATLUG plate for any of the above jobs -- please send a note to our President, Othneil. As Othneil and/or the BOD accepts people for these roles -- I'll turn over the responsibility and access. Please pitch in a bit if you can. If we distribute these jobs to a number of people, none of them will occupy a great deal of time. Thanks everyone. Chuck From geoffw5omr at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 07:00:09 2005 From: geoffw5omr at gmail.com (Geoff) Date: Mon Oct 3 05:34:19 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <1128316143.9367.2167.camel@laptop> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <1128316143.9367.2167.camel@laptop> Message-ID: On 03 Oct 2005 00:09:01 -0500, Chuck wrote: > > You know -- I'm getting DAMN SICK of people bitching about webpages!!! > > I work my ass off for months now trying to set up a deal to get us a new > machine -- so we can load it with new software and provide better access > to the site for updating. Yet, some people harp over and over about the > website. They don't DO a damn thing -- they just bitch about it. Easy there, big fella. It ain't like this same story hasn't been going on since the Spring of 2001 when *I* joined. There are people volunteering now, just like there were people volunteering then. Four years later, and we're no closer to having someone maintain the webpage now, than we were then. Tell you what -- I'm tired of hearing about it. You're now in the position...Do something about. If this is how things > are going to continue, I'll just post all my passwords for the server > on this list. They we'll see if the complainers do anything! I'll bet > not!!! Its easier to just complain. > > IF you want to do something CONSTRUCTIVE -- make up what ever "update" > you want to the website and send it to the President. He is up keeping > the webpages and can post your update. > > But if you just want to complain -- take it ELSEWHERE! Damnit, Chuck, what's left? FOUR YEARS of people complaining about the site not being updated hasn't produced *anything* that could even mistakenly be counted as proactive. For example, there have been alternating meeting nights for every other month for over a year. OVER A YEAR! I KNOW that out of the vocal few that get in here and post, instead of lurk, over 50% of -them- have VOLUNTEERED (myself included, but I can't do it, now) to update the website, but it seem the BOD has a deaf-ear to any volunteers. Now when the roar rises to that of ouright complaints, a represenative from the BOD says "I don't wanna hear yer bitching". Well, damnit - DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! -- Regards, -Geoff Oscar loves trash, but hates spam. Get the Lead out to reply. From chuck at tetlow.net Mon Oct 3 09:54:03 2005 From: chuck at tetlow.net (Chuck) Date: Mon Oct 3 08:28:10 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <1128316143.9367.2167.camel@laptop> Message-ID: <1128347644.22489.44.camel@laptop> FINE! That's it! You just elected yourself. You get a set of passwords to the server and YOU take care of it from now on. I wash my hands of this whole situation. I've got better things to do with my time than listen to exaggerated bitching. Four years -- MY ASS! Goodbye. Chuck On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 06:00, Geoff wrote: On 03 Oct 2005 00:09:01 -0500, Chuck wrote: > > You know -- I'm getting DAMN SICK of people bitching about webpages!!! > > I work my ass off for months now trying to set up a deal to get us a new > machine -- so we can load it with new software and provide better access > to the site for updating. Yet, some people harp over and over about the > website. They don't DO a damn thing -- they just bitch about it. Easy there, big fella. It ain't like this same story hasn't been going on since the Spring of 2001 when *I* joined. There are people volunteering now, just like there were people volunteering then. Four years later, and we're no closer to having someone maintain the webpage now, than we were then. Tell you what -- I'm tired of hearing about it. You're now in the position...Do something about. If this is how things > are going to continue, I'll just post all my passwords for the server > on this list. They we'll see if the complainers do anything! I'll bet > not!!! Its easier to just complain. > > IF you want to do something CONSTRUCTIVE -- make up what ever "update" > you want to the website and send it to the President. He is up keeping > the webpages and can post your update. > > But if you just want to complain -- take it ELSEWHERE! Damnit, Chuck, what's left? FOUR YEARS of people complaining about the site not being updated hasn't produced *anything* that could even mistakenly be counted as proactive. For example, there have been alternating meeting nights for every other month for over a year. OVER A YEAR! I KNOW that out of the vocal few that get in here and post, instead of lurk, over 50% of -them- have VOLUNTEERED (myself included, but I can't do it, now) to update the website, but it seem the BOD has a deaf-ear to any volunteers. Now when the roar rises to that of ouright complaints, a represenative from the BOD says "I don't wanna hear yer bitching". Well, damnit - DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! -- Regards, -Geoff Oscar loves trash, but hates spam. Get the Lead out to reply. _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug From sbender at humana.com Mon Oct 3 10:01:09 2005 From: sbender at humana.com (Shawn Bender) Date: Mon Oct 3 08:35:25 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <1128347644.22489.44.camel@laptop> Message-ID: I think I started somthing bad.. Sorry guys. I just wanted to make SATLUG better and put in my 2 cents. Sorry. Shawn Bender Humana DSI Chuck Sent by: satlug-bounces@satlug.org 10/03/2005 08:54 AM Please respond to "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List" To SATLUG cc Subject Re: [SATLUG] Meetings FINE! That's it! You just elected yourself. You get a set of passwords to the server and YOU take care of it from now on. I wash my hands of this whole situation. I've got better things to do with my time than listen to exaggerated bitching. Four years -- MY ASS! Goodbye. Chuck On Mon, 2005-10-03 at 06:00, Geoff wrote: On 03 Oct 2005 00:09:01 -0500, Chuck wrote: > > You know -- I'm getting DAMN SICK of people bitching about webpages!!! > > I work my ass off for months now trying to set up a deal to get us a new > machine -- so we can load it with new software and provide better access > to the site for updating. Yet, some people harp over and over about the > website. They don't DO a damn thing -- they just bitch about it. Easy there, big fella. It ain't like this same story hasn't been going on since the Spring of 2001 when *I* joined. There are people volunteering now, just like there were people volunteering then. Four years later, and we're no closer to having someone maintain the webpage now, than we were then. Tell you what -- I'm tired of hearing about it. You're now in the position...Do something about. If this is how things > are going to continue, I'll just post all my passwords for the server > on this list. They we'll see if the complainers do anything! I'll bet > not!!! Its easier to just complain. > > IF you want to do something CONSTRUCTIVE -- make up what ever "update" > you want to the website and send it to the President. He is up keeping > the webpages and can post your update. > > But if you just want to complain -- take it ELSEWHERE! Damnit, Chuck, what's left? FOUR YEARS of people complaining about the site not being updated hasn't produced *anything* that could even mistakenly be counted as proactive. For example, there have been alternating meeting nights for every other month for over a year. OVER A YEAR! I KNOW that out of the vocal few that get in here and post, instead of lurk, over 50% of -them- have VOLUNTEERED (myself included, but I can't do it, now) to update the website, but it seem the BOD has a deaf-ear to any volunteers. Now when the roar rises to that of ouright complaints, a represenative from the BOD says "I don't wanna hear yer bitching". Well, damnit - DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! -- Regards, -Geoff Oscar loves trash, but hates spam. Get the Lead out to reply. _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug _______________________________________________ SATLUG mailing list SATLUG@satlug.org http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information. From gwillden at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 10:10:53 2005 From: gwillden at gmail.com (Greg Willden) Date: Mon Oct 3 08:44:57 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: References: <1128347644.22489.44.camel@laptop> Message-ID: <345e55a50510030710o3d598196g333991bec43ec5c7@mail.gmail.com> Not your fault Shawn. This thing with the website has been brewing for _years_. I was involved in a big 'discussion' over it on this list back when Big Al was president. So how long ago was that guys? At least three years right? We all make choices in life about what we do with our time. Chuck has chosen to be exceedingly generous to the Red Cross and as a consequence must pull away from Satlug. It's unfortunate for Satlug but as I said, we all make choices in life. It is important to seek a balance. Greg -- To know recursion, you must first know recursion. From rct at gherkin.frus.com Mon Oct 3 11:32:01 2005 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Mon Oct 3 10:06:07 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] volunteer burnout Message-ID: <20051003153201.7BDFCDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Been there, done that. I don't want to throw cold water on anyone's burning passion to volunteer in a substantial way with respect to SATLUG. At the same time, it would behoove current management to set things up where a volunteer's turn in the barrel isn't open-ended. Without such a scheme, an ownership mentality sets in and overloaded volunteers are extremely reluctant to relinquish custody of "their baby" in spite of demonstrable burnout. Frankly, *I* didn't realize the magnitude of the load Chuck has been carrying, and I'd speculate few of the rest of us did either. It should have never gotten to that point. Me? I was one of the former system and mail administrators who punched out when the combined demands of my pay job and family responsibility forced me to make an either/or choice. The choice was easy when I finally confronted the fact I was spending a substantial amount of time supporting an organization whose meetings I couldn't find the time to attend. So, what's an interested SATLUG member to do? I think the proper individual attitude should be something along the lines of "please don't hesitate to ask me if I can help with something, as long as you're willing to take 'no' for an answer once in a while." As for the officers, please consider delegation as a way to preserve your sanity, but some effort will have to be made to put the infrastructure in place to support volunteers without exposing people to unnecessary risk -- the #$%@! lawyers have made things much more complicated than they should be, but the upshot of it is, assumption of responsiblity often involves liability issues, and volunteers need to be aware of the potential downside. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From adam at npjh.com Mon Oct 3 16:09:46 2005 From: adam at npjh.com (Adam Flott) Date: Mon Oct 3 14:42:18 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> Message-ID: <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 23:16:22 -0500 "Storey Clamp" wrote: > There was a period in time when the meetings were alternated between > Wednesday an Thursday for the benifit of members who had night > classes, but Would it be possible to vote on when meetings are held? Adam From skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu Mon Oct 3 19:17:16 2005 From: skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu (steve kolars) Date: Mon Oct 3 17:50:36 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> Message-ID: <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> ENOUGH! Let's stop this discussion now (sorry if I sound like my mother). In an all volunteer organization "stuff happens". Whatever your opinions are of what has transpired over the past few years, the fact of the matter is that a few (very few) people have done most of the work (and the pay is not great-ha ha). We all owe Chuck a word of thanks for all of the work that he has done behind the sceens. I personally know of quite a bit of work he has done that most people do not even realize. nuff' said. Let us put this behind us and move forward for the best for SATLUG. We already have volunteers to take up the slack. Let us quietly see what happens in the next month. Let us work together. John Pappas (and someoe else I cannot remember): will you be able to give a presentation on LVM and Reiser4 at the next meeting? Steve From me at jchampion.com Mon Oct 3 23:35:06 2005 From: me at jchampion.com (John Champion) Date: Mon Oct 3 22:09:15 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Cannot understand why my emails aren't posting Message-ID: <200510040309.j9439Bw14159@alamo.satlug.org> Hi, For the last month I have sent in several emails in reply to things on this group. For whatever reason, they are not going through. I've emailed from my webmail account, my home, my windows boxes and nothing is going through. I'm wondering if this one will even make it. I'm not having this problem emailing myself at work nor any of my friends. I'm not sure what's going on here. Any ideas? From lists at thehunter.ws Tue Oct 4 03:41:17 2005 From: lists at thehunter.ws (Jeremy Teale) Date: Tue Oct 4 02:15:31 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] volunteer burnout In-Reply-To: <20051003153201.7BDFCDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <20051003153201.7BDFCDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <200510040241.17795.lists@thehunter.ws> I don't follow on the liability point, could you elaborate? On Monday 03 October 2005 10:32 am, Bob Tracy wrote: > they should be, but the upshot of it is, assumption of responsiblity > often involves liability issues, and volunteers need to be aware of > the potential downside. From batshua at rm-f.net Tue Oct 4 12:34:32 2005 From: batshua at rm-f.net (batshua@rm-f.net) Date: Tue Oct 4 04:08:46 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Message-ID: <200510040908.j9498Pw15762@alamo.satlug.org> From jr7958 at sbc.com Tue Oct 4 07:59:37 2005 From: jr7958 at sbc.com (REYNOLDS, JEREMY (SBCSI)) Date: Tue Oct 4 06:33:48 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Cannot understand why my emails aren't posting Message-ID: <8C905E5B8FC22A41A92CFBF81F2ACFA0C1E5A9@MOSTLS1MSGUSR11.ITServices.sbc.com> It seems to be working. > -----Original Message----- > From: satlug-bounces@satlug.org [mailto:satlug-bounces@satlug.org] On Behalf Of John Champion > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2005 10:35 PM > To: 'The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List' > Subject: [SATLUG] Cannot understand why my emails aren't posting > > > Hi, > > For the last month I have sent in several emails in reply to things on this > group. For whatever reason, they are not going through. I've emailed from my > webmail account, my home, my windows boxes and nothing is going through. I'm > wondering if this one will even make it. > > I'm not having this problem emailing myself at work nor any of my friends. > I'm not sure what's going on here. > > Any ideas? > > > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug From lblodgett at macosx.com Tue Oct 4 10:16:23 2005 From: lblodgett at macosx.com (Larry Blodgett) Date: Tue Oct 4 08:50:50 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] (OT) DSL Network Problems???? Message-ID: Is it just me or is SBC DSL in San Antonio creeping like a snail? I apologize for posting but SATLUG is my best source for this type of information. Thanks, Larry lblodgett@macosx.com From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 08:20:39 2005 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Tue Oct 4 08:54:46 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] VNC not working SuSE 9.3 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20051004142039.69292.qmail@web54311.mail.yahoo.com> I setup a little webserver for a friend of mine running ssh/Apache/MySQL/vnc/php.. works great other then VNC (java connection) isnt working anymore.. I just get the red X. I took the firewall down just in case it was a firewall issue, the router settings forward the correct port to the server. I'm stumped. -Alex __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From rct at gherkin.frus.com Tue Oct 4 14:34:16 2005 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:08:24 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] volunteer burnout In-Reply-To: <200510040241.17795.lists@thehunter.ws> "from Jeremy Teale at Oct 4, 2005 02:41:17 am" Message-ID: <20051004183417.15AB7DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Jeremy Teale wrote: > I don't follow on the liability point, could you elaborate? > > On Monday 03 October 2005 10:32 am, Bob Tracy wrote: > > they should be, but the upshot of it is, assumption of responsiblity > > often involves liability issues, and volunteers need to be aware of > > the potential downside. Simple, if unfortunate... SATLUG isn't entirely virtual: it can be construed as having legal structure and standing in some contexts (although the fact we don't currently charge membership dues is going to be considered if anyone attempts to sue an organization called "SATLUG"). Volunteers in various contexts "represent" the organization, and as such can be exposed to the machinations of the legal system if, for example, "offensive" (pick a definition: doesn't really matter if an overzealous ambulance chaser is involved) content appears in the mailing list archives or on the web site. Here are a couple of other examples: (1) Installfests: get those signed waivers of liability from your customers *prior* to accidentally wiping out their hard drives. (This example has been adequately addressed: I don't think there's an installfest customer that *doesn't* understand *s/he* is responsible for backing up anything considered essential before showing up with a computer.) (2) Computerblast shows: safety of those manning the booth (electrical shock, crowd management, demo content, etc.). In a reasonable world with people who are acquainted with the concept of personal responsibility and actually accept it, none of the above would matter. However, this *is* south Texas, and if a person can imagine himself a "victim", a lawyer can be found to exploit the situation. Frankly, I haven't worried (and don't currently worry) about any of the above hypotheticals, because at the time I was actively involved, I considered my risk exposure to be practically non-existent. Why? For the most part, we deal with like-minded people, i.e., geeks (and all that implies :-)). The problems, if any, are far more likely to occur at the geek <--> non-geek interfaces, in other words, where we are likely to come in contact with the general public. This kind of interaction will become more likely as SATLUG becomes more evangelical in nature. After all, that's the way an organization grows and sustains itself. Each potential volunteer should be able to do an informed personal risk assessment, and probably decide (as I did) that this is pretty much a non-issue. In some cases, your board of directors has taken specific steps to insulate you from liability, whether you were aware of that or not. Sorry this got so long-winded... When/if you live long enough, you realize that some of the paranoia really is justified, especially when you see friends getting screwed over as a consequence of something trivial. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From acroft at cyber-wizard.com Tue Oct 4 14:41:18 2005 From: acroft at cyber-wizard.com (Albert Croft) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:15:21 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] VNC not working Suse 9.3 In-Reply-To: <200510041700.j94H08w18226@alamo.satlug.org> References: <200510041700.j94H08w18226@alamo.satlug.org> Message-ID: <4342CCCE.3020601@cyber-wizard.com> Alex, Do you have both ports forwarded? The client program uses one (in the 5900+ range), while the Java client uses a different one (in the 5800+ range). They will differ by 100 in value (i.e., if you are using display 5901, the corresponding port for the Java client would be 5801). ( see also http://faq.gotomybnc.com/fom-serve/cache/52.html ) HTH. -Albert C. satlug-request@satlug.org wrote: >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >Today's Topics: > > 8. VNC not working SuSE 9.3 (Alex Bartonek) > > > >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> Subject: >>> [SATLUG] VNC not working SuSE 9.3 >>> From: >>> Alex Bartonek >>> Date: >>> Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:20:39 -0700 (PDT) >>> To: >>> "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List" >>> >>> To: >>> "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing List" >>> >>> >>>I setup a little webserver for a friend of mine >>>running ssh/Apache/MySQL/vnc/php.. works great other >>>then VNC (java connection) isnt working anymore.. I >>>just get the red X. I took the firewall down just in >>>case it was a firewall issue, the router settings >>>forward the correct port to the server. I'm stumped. >>> >>>-Alex >>> >>> >>> From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 12:43:57 2005 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:18:00 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] VNC not working Suse 9.3 In-Reply-To: <4342CCCE.3020601@cyber-wizard.com> Message-ID: <20051004184357.60210.qmail@web54315.mail.yahoo.com> funny thing is I can use the GUI client to get in..but the java client I cannot. It *used* to work then it stopped.. I found that odd..so I ssh'd into the box (because VNC didnt work and neither did apache) and found quite a few hacking attempts via ssh. I dont believe anyone got through though. -Alex --- Albert Croft wrote: > Alex, > > Do you have both ports forwarded? The client program > uses one (in the > 5900+ range), while the Java client uses a different > one (in the 5800+ > range). They will differ by 100 in value (i.e., if > you are using display > 5901, the corresponding port for the Java client > would be 5801). ( see > also > http://faq.gotomybnc.com/fom-serve/cache/52.html ) > > HTH. > > -Albert C. > > satlug-request@satlug.org wrote: > > >------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >Today's Topics: > > > > 8. VNC not working SuSE 9.3 (Alex Bartonek) > > > > > > > >>> > >>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>> > >>> Subject: > >>> [SATLUG] VNC not working SuSE 9.3 > >>> From: > >>> Alex Bartonek > >>> Date: > >>> Tue, 4 Oct 2005 07:20:39 -0700 (PDT) > >>> To: > >>> "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing > List" > >>> > >>> To: > >>> "The San Antonio Linux User's Group Mailing > List" > >>> > >>> > >>>I setup a little webserver for a friend of mine > >>>running ssh/Apache/MySQL/vnc/php.. works great > other > >>>then VNC (java connection) isnt working anymore.. > I > >>>just get the red X. I took the firewall down > just in > >>>case it was a firewall issue, the router settings > >>>forward the correct port to the server. I'm > stumped. > >>> > >>>-Alex > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From lblodgett at macosx.com Tue Oct 4 14:44:48 2005 From: lblodgett at macosx.com (Larry Blodgett) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:18:46 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] (OT) DSL Network Problems???? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <239b9d43f795a4425691e463b0e9bbb1@macosx.com> I pinged my DSL ip address from work and it appears I am getting sever packet losses (see below). Does this this point to a particular problem? Do I need to contact SBC or could this be my fault? I have a fixed IP account. I have had DSL for several years and this has never been a problem in the past. I have reset the DSL modem by re-powering and I have also reset my switch. If you have any helpful ideas let me know. PING 64.123.93.185 (64.123.93.185): 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=23.673 ms 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=13 ttl=56 time=19.44 ms 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=14 ttl=56 time=23.461 ms 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=20 ttl=56 time=23.213 ms 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=22 ttl=56 time=14.381 ms 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=26 ttl=56 time=23.148 ms --- 64.123.93.185 ping statistics --- 28 packets transmitted, 12 packets received, 57% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max = 14.381/21.12/23.673 ms On Oct 4, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Larry Blodgett wrote: > Is it just me or is SBC DSL in San Antonio creeping like a snail? > > I apologize for posting but SATLUG is my best source for this type of > information. > > Thanks, > Larry > lblodgett@macosx.com > > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > From jesse at liberto.org Tue Oct 4 09:53:16 2005 From: jesse at liberto.org (Jesse Gonzalez) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:27:08 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] (OT) DSL Network Problems???? In-Reply-To: <239b9d43f795a4425691e463b0e9bbb1@macosx.com> References: <239b9d43f795a4425691e463b0e9bbb1@macosx.com> Message-ID: <4342894C.2030706@liberto.org> Try a traceroute to try and trace where the problem may be. ~jesse Larry Blodgett wrote: > I pinged my DSL ip address from work and it appears I am getting sever > packet losses (see below). > > Does this this point to a particular problem? Do I need to contact SBC > or could this be my fault? > > I have a fixed IP account. > I have had DSL for several years and this has never been a problem in > the past. > I have reset the DSL modem by re-powering and I have also reset my switch. > > If you have any helpful ideas let me know. > > PING 64.123.93.185 (64.123.93.185): 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=23.673 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=13 ttl=56 time=19.44 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=14 ttl=56 time=23.461 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=20 ttl=56 time=23.213 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=22 ttl=56 time=14.381 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=26 ttl=56 time=23.148 ms > --- 64.123.93.185 ping statistics --- > 28 packets transmitted, 12 packets received, 57% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max = 14.381/21.12/23.673 ms > > > On Oct 4, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Larry Blodgett wrote: > >> Is it just me or is SBC DSL in San Antonio creeping like a snail? >> >> I apologize for posting but SATLUG is my best source for this type of >> information. >> >> Thanks, >> Larry >> lblodgett@macosx.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> SATLUG mailing list >> SATLUG@satlug.org >> http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug >> > > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug From vern.davis at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 15:24:38 2005 From: vern.davis at gmail.com (Vern Davis) Date: Tue Oct 4 13:58:40 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] (OT) DSL Network Problems???? In-Reply-To: <239b9d43f795a4425691e463b0e9bbb1@macosx.com> References: <239b9d43f795a4425691e463b0e9bbb1@macosx.com> Message-ID: <5ef09f10510041224v6438b333ybb141363b0875d48@mail.gmail.com> On 10/4/05, Larry Blodgett wrote: > I pinged my DSL ip address from work and it appears I am getting sever > packet losses (see below). > > Does this this point to a particular problem? Do I need to contact SBC > or could this be my fault? > > I have a fixed IP account. > I have had DSL for several years and this has never been a problem in > the past. > I have reset the DSL modem by re-powering and I have also reset my > switch. > > If you have any helpful ideas let me know. > > PING 64.123.93.185 (64.123.93.185): 56 data bytes > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=23.673 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=13 ttl=56 time=19.44 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=14 ttl=56 time=23.461 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=20 ttl=56 time=23.213 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=22 ttl=56 time=14.381 ms > 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=26 ttl=56 time=23.148 ms > --- 64.123.93.185 ping statistics --- > 28 packets transmitted, 12 packets received, 57% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max = 14.381/21.12/23.673 ms > > > On Oct 4, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Larry Blodgett wrote: > > > Is it just me or is SBC DSL in San Antonio creeping like a snail? > > > > I apologize for posting but SATLUG is my best source for this type of > > information. > > > > Thanks, > > Larry > > lblodgett@macosx.com > > Funny thing! I had a similar problem last week; only I'm on GVTC, and use cable. The first symptom I noticed was that I stopped receiving e-mail, which comes through a server at a different location from me, though still on GVTC. In the process of troubleshooting, I found the packets were drooping. The Powers That Be, at GVTC, finally fixed it sometime later the next day, but I just spoke to them, and they still don't know what caused it. I had the same problem several months ago. The trick is getting somebody at your ISP to actually try to find out what's going on, instead of giving you the old "Reboot your windows machine" answer!!! Good luck!!! -- vern.davis@gmail.com From lblodgett at macosx.com Tue Oct 4 18:23:55 2005 From: lblodgett at macosx.com (Larry Blodgett) Date: Tue Oct 4 16:57:54 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] (OT) DSL Network Problems???? In-Reply-To: <5ef09f10510041224v6438b333ybb141363b0875d48@mail.gmail.com> References: <239b9d43f795a4425691e463b0e9bbb1@macosx.com> <5ef09f10510041224v6438b333ybb141363b0875d48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: it looks like I am back up. 2005-10-04 18:21:36 EST: 1201 / 320 Your download speed : 1230560 bps, or 1201 kbps. A 150.2 KB/sec transfer rate. Your upload speed : 328245 bps, or 320 kbps. Who knows what happened. Thanks for all your comments. Larry On Oct 4, 2005, at 2:24 PM, Vern Davis wrote: > On 10/4/05, Larry Blodgett wrote: > >> I pinged my DSL ip address from work and it appears I am getting >> sever >> packet losses (see below). >> >> Does this this point to a particular problem? Do I need to >> contact SBC >> or could this be my fault? >> >> I have a fixed IP account. >> I have had DSL for several years and this has never been a problem in >> the past. >> I have reset the DSL modem by re-powering and I have also reset my >> switch. >> >> If you have any helpful ideas let me know. >> >> PING 64.123.93.185 (64.123.93.185): 56 data bytes >> 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=1 ttl=56 time=23.673 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=13 ttl=56 time=19.44 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=14 ttl=56 time=23.461 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=20 ttl=56 time=23.213 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=22 ttl=56 time=14.381 ms >> 64 bytes from 64.123.93.185: icmp_seq=26 ttl=56 time=23.148 ms >> --- 64.123.93.185 ping statistics --- >> 28 packets transmitted, 12 packets received, 57% packet loss >> round-trip min/avg/max = 14.381/21.12/23.673 ms >> >> >> On Oct 4, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Larry Blodgett wrote: >> >> >>> Is it just me or is SBC DSL in San Antonio creeping like a snail? >>> >>> I apologize for posting but SATLUG is my best source for this >>> type of >>> information. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Larry >>> lblodgett@macosx.com >>> >>> > > Funny thing! > > I had a similar problem last week; only I'm on GVTC, and use cable. > > The first symptom I noticed was that I stopped receiving e-mail, which > comes through a server at a different location from me, though still > on GVTC. > > In the process of troubleshooting, I found the packets were drooping. > > The Powers That Be, at GVTC, finally fixed it sometime later the next > day, but I just spoke to them, and they still don't know what caused > it. I had the same problem several months ago. > > The trick is getting somebody at your ISP to actually try to find out > what's going on, instead of giving you the old "Reboot your windows > machine" answer!!! > > Good luck!!! > > -- > vern.davis@gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > Larry Blodgett lblodgett@macosx.com From solinym at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 23:32:30 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Tue Oct 4 22:06:33 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <20050926001519.GA32220@mail.fortuitous.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> Message-ID: > Yes. But why should one use it? Good question. Sometimes people like to have a mapping from a file to the package that owns it. > There is no reason for an *individual* > to use modules otherwise. Lies. 1) Development of a module. Without modules, to try a new rev of a module, you must reboot. 2) Memory usage. Modules may be paged out, whereas stuff built into the kernel is wired into physical memory until the system is shut down. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From solinym at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 23:34:29 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Tue Oct 4 22:08:32 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <20051002023441.GA18164@mail.fortuitous.com> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <20050926001519.GA32220@mail.fortuitous.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <20051002023441.GA18164@mail.fortuitous.com> Message-ID: > Many of us use kernel.org (korg) kernels to compile, and we do > it from a folder in a normal (non-root) account. You can also use sudo to do the other commands, so you don't need a root login at all. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From solinym at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 00:36:28 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Tue Oct 4 23:10:32 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: I don't know if anyone was paying attention, but my offer to install moinmoin (a python-based wiki) and double-click on it periodically to edit the meeting date stands. I have implemented it once already to create an index for 2600 articles. I think the URL is: http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/cgi-bin/moin.cgi -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From solinym at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 03:16:39 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Wed Oct 5 01:50:42 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] useful URL Message-ID: lots of good reading material http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_important_publications_in_computer_science -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From afcasta at texas.net Wed Oct 5 07:08:29 2005 From: afcasta at texas.net (Al Castanoli) Date: Wed Oct 5 05:42:39 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net><433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> Message-ID: <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 22:32, Travis H. wrote: > > Yes. But why should one use it? > > Good question. Sometimes people like to have a mapping from a file to > the package that owns it. > > > There is no reason for an *individual* > > to use modules otherwise. > > Lies. > 1) Development of a module. Without modules, to try a new rev of a > module, you must reboot. > > 2) Memory usage. Modules may be paged out, whereas stuff built into > the kernel is wired into physical memory until the system is shut > down. So, how did that hook taste? I took that as an obvious troll, but then some folks just like monolithic kernels. Al Castanoli From bdubbs at swbell.net Wed Oct 5 10:23:25 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Wed Oct 5 08:57:23 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net><433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> Message-ID: <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> Answering both Travis and Al: Al Castanoli wrote: > On Tue, 2005-10-04 at 22:32, Travis H. wrote: >> >>>There is no reason for an *individual* >>>to use modules otherwise. >> >>Lies. Try using a smiley here. Would you say this to my face? >>1) Development of a module. Without modules, to try a new rev of a >>module, you must reboot. Possibly. I have almost never have had to try out a new module without a new version of the kernel. The exception is the nvidia driver that is proprietary. I said in my original post that proprietary drivers were an exception. Also, unless you have a server, what is the big deal about rebooting? Servers probably shouldn't have any of the drivers that are most likely to need updates anyway. The probably don't need X, usb, firewire, etc. They definitely don't need sound. >>2) Memory usage. Modules may be paged out, whereas stuff built into >>the kernel is wired into physical memory until the system is shut >>down. Paging is done in 4K units, not by files. It doesn't make any difference here if it is a module or not. Even if your premise was correct, why would you care? How much system memory do you have? A low end system has 128M. What impact does 20K (or 100K) have? > So, how did that hook taste? > > I took that as an obvious troll, but then some folks just like > monolithic kernels. No, it wasn't a troll. Why do you infer that it was? I see advantages from a distro's point of view, but not for users. -- Bruce From J at JVPappas.net Wed Oct 5 10:57:13 2005 From: J at JVPappas.net (John Pappas) Date: Wed Oct 5 09:31:12 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <433B5110.3040304@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <20050926042540.58701.qmail@web50112.mail.yahoo.com> <1127732108.26102.10.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <43381589.60503@cis.sac.accd.edu> <1127834063.13228.40.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <433B5110.3040304@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <1128524233.7864.4.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> Hey all, I can do the October presentation. I will cover the topics that I suggested, minus EVMS as I do not have enough experience with that to add value beyond the online documentation. Thanks! John On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 21:27 -0500, steve kolars wrote: > John Pappas wrote: > >I am using LVM on top of MD devices with both Reiser (no Reiser4) and > >ext3. My only issue is that my production experience is limited > >(Basically all theoretical/hobbyist). > >I have no experience with EVMS at all. > >Ideally by October, I hope to have played with LVM on MD Raid on MD > >Multipath, but do not have that yet. > > > >If there is anyone out there who can help me strengthen my weaknesses, > >we can put something together. > > > Hey Linux geeks... Someone needs to volunteer and help John out here. > Actually... it would be helping the whole community. > > Steve > > >John > > > >On Mon, 2005-09-26 at 10:36 -0500, steve kolars wrote: > > > >>John Pappas wrote: > >> > >>>Since there has been recent discussion of Software RAID/LVM (File > >>>Servers, MythTV, etc) > >>> > >>>Maybe a discussion that covers: > >>>-- Concepts (RAID/LVM) > >>>-- Combining the concepts > >>>-- Effects on file systems > >>>-- pv/lv commmands > >>>-- EVMS additional functionality > >>>-- Shrink/Grow/Move volumes > >>> > >>>Thoughts? > >>>John > >>> > >>> > >>Anyone out there using Raid and/or LVM? Anyone have any experience with > >>Reiser4? Anyone feel like giving a presentation on Raid and/or LVM > >>and/or Reiser4? > >> > >>Steve > >> > >> > > > >_______________________________________________ > >SATLUG mailing list > >SATLUG@satlug.org > >http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > > > > > > > From skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu Wed Oct 5 11:12:13 2005 From: skolars at cis.sac.accd.edu (steve kolars) Date: Wed Oct 5 09:45:31 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <1128524233.7864.4.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> References: <20050926042540.58701.qmail@web50112.mail.yahoo.com> <1127732108.26102.10.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <43381589.60503@cis.sac.accd.edu> <1127834063.13228.40.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <433B5110.3040304@cis.sac.accd.edu> <1128524233.7864.4.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> Message-ID: <4343ED4D.4050505@cis.sac.accd.edu> John Pappas wrote: >Hey all, >I can do the October presentation. I will cover the topics that I >suggested, minus EVMS as I do not have enough experience with that to >add value beyond the online documentation. > Sounds good. Let me know what you need (i.e., projector, Internet, etc...). Steve >Thanks! >John > >On Wed, 2005-09-28 at 21:27 -0500, steve kolars wrote: > >>John Pappas wrote: >> >>>I am using LVM on top of MD devices with both Reiser (no Reiser4) and >>>ext3. My only issue is that my production experience is limited >>>(Basically all theoretical/hobbyist). >>>I have no experience with EVMS at all. >>>Ideally by October, I hope to have played with LVM on MD Raid on MD >>>Multipath, but do not have that yet. >>> >>>If there is anyone out there who can help me strengthen my weaknesses, >>>we can put something together. >>> >>> >>Hey Linux geeks... Someone needs to volunteer and help John out here. >>Actually... it would be helping the whole community. >> >>Steve >> >> >>>John >>> >>>On Mon, 2005-09-26 at 10:36 -0500, steve kolars wrote: >>> >>> >>>>John Pappas wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>Since there has been recent discussion of Software RAID/LVM (File >>>>>Servers, MythTV, etc) >>>>> >>>>>Maybe a discussion that covers: >>>>>-- Concepts (RAID/LVM) >>>>>-- Combining the concepts >>>>>-- Effects on file systems >>>>>-- pv/lv commmands >>>>>-- EVMS additional functionality >>>>>-- Shrink/Grow/Move volumes >>>>> >>>>>Thoughts? >>>>>John >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>Anyone out there using Raid and/or LVM? Anyone have any experience with >>>>Reiser4? Anyone feel like giving a presentation on Raid and/or LVM >>>>and/or Reiser4? >>>> >>>>Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>SATLUG mailing list >>>SATLUG@satlug.org >>>http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug >>> >>> >>> >>> > >_______________________________________________ >SATLUG mailing list >SATLUG@satlug.org >http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > > > From gwillden at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 11:19:19 2005 From: gwillden at gmail.com (Greg Willden) Date: Wed Oct 5 09:53:19 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <4343ED4D.4050505@cis.sac.accd.edu> References: <20050926042540.58701.qmail@web50112.mail.yahoo.com> <1127732108.26102.10.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <43381589.60503@cis.sac.accd.edu> <1127834063.13228.40.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <433B5110.3040304@cis.sac.accd.edu> <1128524233.7864.4.camel@spook.jvpappas.net> <4343ED4D.4050505@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <345e55a50510050819p663ff07fn8983ba11d18340c0@mail.gmail.com> Date and Time? On 10/5/05, steve kolars wrote: > > John Pappas wrote: > >Hey all, > >I can do the October presentation. I will cover the topics that I > >suggested, minus EVMS as I do not have enough experience with that to > >add value beyond the online documentation. > > > Sounds good. Let me know what you need (i.e., projector, Internet, > etc...). > > Steve > > -- To know recursion, you must first know recursion. From e2eiod at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:29:35 2005 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Wed Oct 5 13:03:39 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Conary Package Management Message-ID: There has been some discussion lately about the new kernel packaging. Since I am totally without knowledge about that I can't comment. It looks like a good idea and where Package Management is going. I base that statement on the Conary software at--- http://wiki.conary.com The claim is made that this product is a replacement for traditional Package Management tools like RPM. If true, this would apply to the kernel as well. Is anyone using the Conary product? Has anyone looked at it? Thanks, Robert From jfw5cpa at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 14:48:04 2005 From: jfw5cpa at gmail.com (Jim Wells) Date: Wed Oct 5 13:21:36 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Distribution of SATLUG group duties In-Reply-To: <1128324445.22489.38.camel@laptop> References: <1128324445.22489.38.camel@laptop> Message-ID: <434411D4.8030905@gmail.com> Chuck wrote: > > 2) Someone to take over the maillist management. This DOES take some > time. Our maillist is hit literally hundreds of times each day with > SPAM, hack attempts, and other malicious stuff. But mixed in with it is > just a few legitimate e-mails. That list has to be sorted through at > least once a week to find the legitimate ones and approve them -- and > throw away the rest. Its not automatic, it has to be done manually for > EACH of the three maillists -- SATLUG, SATLUG-ETC, Officers. > > The same person who takes over that duty should set up a mail account > that the server can send notifications to. The server sends out a > notification when those pieces of shit SPAM come in. And it sends out > reminders of how many "pending moderator requests" there are to sort > through. Mixed in with that junk mail is some valid e-mails and > notifications of subscriptions/unsubscriptions to the lists. Same type > of sorting should be done here at least weekly. This job doesn't need > much background/experience -- just spare time to do it. > How much spare time is needed each week? Are you talking about 30 minutes a week or 3 hours? (Sorry if the question sounds stupid.) If the time required is on the high side, could each maillist have a separate person handling it? Jim Wells Amateur Radio Operator From jeremymann at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 20:48:53 2005 From: jeremymann at gmail.com (Jeremy Mann) Date: Wed Oct 5 19:22:54 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Plea for garage space Message-ID: <79ec289f0510051748n5bbcc7f1s6e4319f3abf18a27@mail.gmail.com> About a month ago I posted about 2 HPUX servers I had got as a donation. Well there is now more in my garage that I'd like to get rid of. All of these are donations from local computer companies for my dad's ministry, Barrabas Ministries. Its a local ministry that helps ex-prisoners adapt to Christianity. I'm not preaching here, but its a good cause. Anyway, Stance at PC Shows wouldn't give us a discount on the table price so we couldn't sell them at the show a few weekends ago, so I'm looking to sell the stuff if I can. The list: 2 HPUX Digital servers with ADB backplane and 3 serial terminals 1 IBM P2-350 2 Pentium Pro 180mhz Digital workstations, one with NeXT OS 3 17" Viewsonic monitors (1 is burnt in) 5 15" assorted monitors 2 old NEC laptops 1 NEC docking station 3 old IBM laptops 3 IBM docking stations 3 boxes assorted cables, keyboards and mice Any reasonable offer will be accepted. I can be reached after 6pm at 210-378-1277. Notes: HPUX servers. I haven't tested them because I am missing the cable from the ADB port on the servers to the ADB backplane. Maybe I overlooked it in one of the boxes. Both are Digital Series E55-9000 with CDROM and tape drives. Capacity of the tape drives is unknown. PPro 180s. These are pretty cool. One I know has the NeXT operating system, the other I haven't tested. I think its missing the hard drive. If interested I can check it out again. The working NeXT system could be a cool retro learning tool. Burnt in Viewsonic monitor. Its really *not* that bad, just barely noticeable. Probably good for a console server. The laptops. These I haven't tested because with the 3 boxes of cables and stuff, I maybe overlooking the power supplies and can't seem to find them. You like to dig through boxes of cable? Please find them for me!!! ;) Anyway, I'd thought I'd give the local community a chance at these before I sell the stuff on ebay. -- Jeremy From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Wed Oct 5 18:56:49 2005 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Wed Oct 5 19:30:50 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Plea for garage space In-Reply-To: <79ec289f0510051748n5bbcc7f1s6e4319f3abf18a27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20051006005649.77996.qmail@web54301.mail.yahoo.com> how fast, or should I say..slow..are the laptops? --- Jeremy Mann wrote: > About a month ago I posted about 2 HPUX servers I > had got as a > donation. Well there is now more in my garage that > I'd like to get rid > of. All of these are donations from local computer > companies for my > dad's ministry, Barrabas Ministries. Its a local > ministry that helps > ex-prisoners adapt to Christianity. I'm not > preaching here, but its a > good cause. Anyway, Stance at PC Shows wouldn't give > us a discount on > the table price so we couldn't sell them at the show > a few weekends > ago, so I'm looking to sell the stuff if I can. > > The list: > > 2 HPUX Digital servers with ADB backplane and 3 > serial terminals > 1 IBM P2-350 > 2 Pentium Pro 180mhz Digital workstations, one with > NeXT OS > 3 17" Viewsonic monitors (1 is burnt in) > 5 15" assorted monitors > 2 old NEC laptops > 1 NEC docking station > 3 old IBM laptops > 3 IBM docking stations > 3 boxes assorted cables, keyboards and mice > > Any reasonable offer will be accepted. I can be > reached after 6pm at > 210-378-1277. > > Notes: > HPUX servers. I haven't tested them because I am > missing the cable > from the ADB port on the servers to the ADB > backplane. Maybe I > overlooked it in one of the boxes. Both are Digital > Series E55-9000 > with CDROM and tape drives. Capacity of the tape > drives is unknown. > > PPro 180s. These are pretty cool. One I know has the > NeXT operating > system, the other I haven't tested. I think its > missing the hard > drive. If interested I can check it out again. The > working NeXT system > could be a cool retro learning tool. > > Burnt in Viewsonic monitor. Its really *not* that > bad, just barely > noticeable. Probably good for a console server. > > The laptops. These I haven't tested because with the > 3 boxes of cables > and stuff, I maybe overlooking the power supplies > and can't seem to > find them. You like to dig through boxes of cable? > Please find them > for me!!! ;) > > Anyway, I'd thought I'd give the local community a > chance at these > before I sell the stuff on ebay. > > > -- > Jeremy > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > __________________________________ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com From jeremymann at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 22:19:01 2005 From: jeremymann at gmail.com (Jeremy Mann) Date: Wed Oct 5 20:53:21 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Re: Plea for garage space In-Reply-To: <20051006005649.77996.qmail@web54301.mail.yahoo.com> References: <79ec289f0510051748n5bbcc7f1s6e4319f3abf18a27@mail.gmail.com> <20051006005649.77996.qmail@web54301.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79ec289f0510051919u3880a749w5047cf9e3458049d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/5/05, Alex Bartonek wrote: > how fast, or should I say..slow..are the laptops? Alex, I'm guessing Pentium speed. I've had 1 contact for the IBM laptops. Since I have 3 you're welcome to come by and check them out and dig through the boxes for power supplies. -- Jeremy From mark at mccoyfam.net Wed Oct 5 19:02:12 2005 From: mark at mccoyfam.net (Mark D. McCoy) Date: Wed Oct 5 22:36:05 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] (OT) DSL Network Problems???? In-Reply-To: References: <5ef09f10510041224v6438b333ybb141363b0875d48@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200510051802.13029.mark@mccoyfam.net> On Tuesday 04 October 2005 05:23 pm, Larry Blodgett wrote: > it looks like I am back up. > > 2005-10-04 18:21:36 EST: 1201 / 320 > Your download speed : 1230560 bps, or 1201 kbps. > A 150.2 KB/sec transfer rate. > Your upload speed : 328245 bps, or 320 kbps. > > Who knows what happened. > Thanks for all your comments. > > Larry SBC has been having problems in the northwest part of town last week as well as on Tuesday. Both times a huge chunk of fiber was cut, took a few hours to fix. This might have affected you, depending on how SBC's network is laid out. We lost all connectivity between UTSA and our downtown campus both times :( -- Mark D. McCoy "There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't." From mark at mccoyfam.net Wed Oct 5 19:14:55 2005 From: mark at mccoyfam.net (Mark D. McCoy) Date: Wed Oct 5 22:48:45 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] tempted by the fruit of another... Message-ID: <200510051814.55372.mark@mccoyfam.net> Well, because of my new job, I've been tempted to try out something new, namely Solaris for x86 hardware. I've never messed with Solaris/x86 before (even when it was "free as in beer"), and now that they are doing the whole redhat/fedora thing with opensolaris.org I thought I would give it a shot. At work I've been exposed to some of the features of solaris that I never knew existed, and some of the new features of version 10 are really interesting (if they work as advertised). My group at work is all Solaris on Sun hardware, and I've forced myself to exist almost completely on Solaris for the last couple of weeks. I just installed Solaris/x86 on my laptop as a test, and everything came up fine so far. I haven't tried the wireless cardbus adapter, which I think will be a problem, but everything else seems fine. Don't worry, I'm not going to leave the linux cheerleading squad, I'm just going to visit the stands on the other side for a while!! -- Mark D. McCoy "There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary, and those who don't." From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 00:36:04 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Wed Oct 5 23:10:05 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> Message-ID: > >>Lies. > > Try using a smiley here. Would you say this to my face? Yes. I say it all the time at work, with a deadpan delivery. ;-) > >>1) Development of a module. Without modules, to try a new rev of a > >>module, you must reboot. > > Possibly. I have almost never have had to try out a new module without I said development, as in "you're writing one". There's no call to recompile a whole kernel when you're making changes to a single module. > Also, unless you have a server, what is the big deal about rebooting? It's slow? It requires saving all your work, and often, it requires re-opening several windows? > >>2) Memory usage. Modules may be paged out, whereas stuff built into > >>the kernel is wired into physical memory until the system is shut > >>down. > > Paging is done in 4K units, not by files. So? All the 4k units of the kernel stay paged in. Otherwise, what would you do if the paging-in code got paged out?. >It doesn't make any difference here if it is a module or not. You're wrong, so I'll repeat myself. Modules may be paged out. The kernel may not. And the page size varies across architectures. x86 supports large pages (2M and 4MB IIRC), but I don't think Linux makes use of them. (Though it'd be nice if the kernel just used one large page). > Even if your premise was > correct, why would you care? How much system memory do you have? A low > end system has 128M. What impact does 20K (or 100K) have? Your kernel is much larger than 20 or 100kB. Plus there's TLB thrashing, among other things. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From e2eiod at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 00:44:45 2005 From: e2eiod at gmail.com (Robert Pearson) Date: Wed Oct 5 23:18:45 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] tempted by the fruit of another... In-Reply-To: <200510051814.55372.mark@mccoyfam.net> References: <200510051814.55372.mark@mccoyfam.net> Message-ID: On 10/5/05, Mark D. McCoy wrote: > Well, because of my new job, I've been tempted to try out something new, > namely Solaris for x86 hardware. I've never messed with Solaris/x86 before > (even when it was "free as in beer"), and now that they are doing the whole > redhat/fedora thing with opensolaris.org I thought I would give it a shot. > > At work I've been exposed to some of the features of solaris that I never knew > existed, and some of the new features of version 10 are really interesting > (if they work as advertised). My group at work is all Solaris on Sun > hardware, and I've forced myself to exist almost completely on Solaris for > the last couple of weeks. I just installed Solaris/x86 on my laptop as a > test, and everything came up fine so far. I haven't tried the wireless > cardbus adapter, which I think will be a problem, but everything else seems > fine. > > Don't worry, I'm not going to leave the linux cheerleading squad, I'm just > going to visit the stands on the other side for a while!! Are you single booting or multi-booting? I had trouble with Solaris installing in a multi-boot setup. It ran fine as a single OS on all my machines. It was a little slower than SuSE 9.3 on the user interface. That may be because I installed CDE, which is a big resource pig. The recommendation was to run Solaris 10 under VMware for multi-OS machines. I don't have VMware I couldn't try it. Anybody have a different experience? Thanks, Robert From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 00:48:58 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Wed Oct 5 23:22:59 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> Message-ID: > So? All the 4k units of the kernel stay paged in. Otherwise, what > would you do if the paging-in code got paged out?. I should point out that the kernel doesn't know the difference between page-in/out code and the rest of the statically linked kernel. However, modules are a whole different animal. I've had this argument before, since coming from a BSD background I didn't see much point in LKMs. I was wrong. So now you're getting the same lecture I got. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From othniel at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 00:57:03 2005 From: othniel at gmail.com (Othniel Graichen) Date: Wed Oct 5 23:31:03 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> Message-ID: <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> SATLUG & Travis: We've had multiple presentations at SATLUG meetings before. How long is your presentation? Guess? John Pappas and myself also want to give a presentation. I guess mine will have to wait. Next Wednesday is midterm prep in Mr. Steve Kolars forensics class at SAC, but I will be in the building to introduce both of you. and to discuss the business of divying up responsibilities within the group. Everyone needs to appreciate our server sponsorship from Rackspace and how this needs to be handled with utmost care. We are not a customer. And we dont want to get hacked again. Please understand that an upgrade of the SATLUG server's hardware is the first priority. Security of the new box is key. Keeping the existing box on lifesupport until then is all that can be asked. The ideas that everyone has about what can be done with SATLUG's domain are welcomed and some will be implemented (as soon as we get a box that can handle them). Also the volunteer efforts of those that have stepped forward. Our existing machine can't barely even handle what it is doing now without failing periodically. Progress has been made in coordinating with Rackspace for a new server. Fussing at me or Chuck or anyone else is not going to fix or accelerate the process of server acquisition, installation, configuration, migration or deployment. Comments anyone, Othniel Graichen SATLUG President On 10/4/05, Travis H. wrote: > > I don't know if anyone was paying attention, but my offer to install > moinmoin (a python-based wiki) and double-click on it periodically to > edit the meeting date stands. > > I have implemented it once already to create an index for 2600 articles. > I think the URL is: > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/cgi-bin/moin.cgi > > -- > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- > GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 01:18:11 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Wed Oct 5 23:52:11 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> Message-ID: Some interesting posts on paging behavior: http://www.garlic.com/~lynn/2003f.html#3 By TLB thrashing, I mean that the TLB contains the virtual->physical mapping, and it won't be expunged due to being paged out. However, it could still be forced out due to access to other pages. In some cases, like some ISA DMA cards, you cannot use any memory address, it is limited to low memory where the kernel is stored (but not modules). There may be other such cases. But it is true that there's a lot more memory in most computers these days, and 2MB out of 128 may not matter that much. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 01:23:37 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Wed Oct 5 23:57:37 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] the evil bit Message-ID: Wow, my job as a network defender is easier than I thought, all I've got to do is filter packets which set the evil bit: http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3514.txt -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From jtiner at gvtc.com Thu Oct 6 01:54:01 2005 From: jtiner at gvtc.com (James Tiner) Date: Thu Oct 6 00:22:12 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1128578041.7405.5.camel@linux.tiner.org> Othniel, I just want to say that I appreciate the situation with the server and Rackspace's generous donation. 'Don't look a gift horse in the mouth' applies here. I just want to re-iterate that while I am primarily a lurker and have as yet not attended a single meeting (three kids, trying to start a business, etc.), I will gladly offer whatever time I can muster to help out once all of it has been worked out and the decisions are made. Of course, this statement goes against everything I learned about volunteering during my time in the US Navy, but what the hell, maybe I can be useful for the organization... On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 23:57 -0500, Othniel Graichen wrote: > SATLUG & Travis: > > We've had multiple presentations at SATLUG meetings before. > How long is your presentation? Guess? John Pappas and myself > also want to give a presentation. I guess mine will have to wait. > Next Wednesday is midterm prep in Mr. Steve Kolars forensics > class at SAC, but I will be in the building to introduce both of you. > and to discuss the business of divying up responsibilities within > the group. Everyone needs to appreciate our server sponsorship > from Rackspace and how this needs to be handled with utmost > care. We are not a customer. And we dont want to get hacked > again. > > Please understand that an upgrade of the SATLUG server's hardware > is the first priority. Security of the new box is key. Keeping the > existing box on lifesupport until then is all that can be asked. The > ideas that everyone has about what can be done with SATLUG's > domain are welcomed and some will be implemented (as soon as we > get a box that can handle them). Also the volunteer efforts of those > that have stepped forward. Our existing machine can't barely even > handle what it is doing now without failing periodically. Progress has > been made in coordinating with Rackspace for a new server. Fussing > at me or Chuck or anyone else is not going to fix or accelerate the process > of server acquisition, installation, configuration, migration or deployment. > > Comments anyone, > Othniel Graichen > SATLUG President > > > On 10/4/05, Travis H. wrote: > > > > I don't know if anyone was paying attention, but my offer to install > > moinmoin (a python-based wiki) and double-click on it periodically to > > edit the meeting date stands. > > > > I have implemented it once already to create an index for 2600 articles. > > I think the URL is: > > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/cgi-bin/moin.cgi > > > > -- > > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- > > GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B > > _______________________________________________ > > SATLUG mailing list > > SATLUG@satlug.org > > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > > > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 02:50:54 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Thu Oct 6 01:24:54 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] tempted by the fruit of another... In-Reply-To: References: <200510051814.55372.mark@mccoyfam.net> Message-ID: > That may > be because I installed CDE, which is a big resource pig. You know, Solaris now uses gnome... I wonder which is more bloated. > The recommendation was to run Solaris 10 under VMware for multi-OS > machines. I don't have VMware I couldn't try it. Have you considered xen? http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/ -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 02:51:37 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Thu Oct 6 01:25:37 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] tempted by the fruit of another... In-Reply-To: References: <200510051814.55372.mark@mccoyfam.net> Message-ID: > Have you considered xen? > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/SRG/netos/xen/ Whoops, looks like Sol isn't supported. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From afcasta at texas.net Thu Oct 6 07:26:03 2005 From: afcasta at texas.net (Al Castanoli) Date: Thu Oct 6 06:00:12 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> Message-ID: <1128597963.1567.4.camel@phrodo> On Wed, 2005-10-05 at 09:23, Bruce Dubbs wrote: > Answering both Travis and Al: > > Al Castanoli wrote: > > So, how did that hook taste? > > > > I took that as an obvious troll, but then some folks just like > > monolithic kernels. > > No, it wasn't a troll. Why do you infer that it was? Then you have my apologies - I thought it was a troll because most of the linux from scratch folks I've worked with try to steer clear of monolithic kernels so that they don't have to build a new one every time an updated driver comes out. There was a time when I'd recompile my kernels regularly, but these days I usually don't take the time, unless there's a security concern. I've moved on to being a module user myself and read your posting from that point of view. Alder the sheepish From edcoates at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 10:41:29 2005 From: edcoates at gmail.com (Ed Coates) Date: Thu Oct 6 09:15:29 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process Message-ID: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, Hope that someone can help me out with this. I logged into my box remotely and was running screen with pine up in one virtual screen and running some other processes in another from my hotel room. I left for a bit, and upon coming back, I realized that my connection had locked. So I re-established my internet connection and logged back into the server to find that my screen sessions had locked up also, so I killed screen, but the pine session detached and won't die. It now has a parent id of 1 (the init process) and no matter what I've done, either as my regular account, or root, it won't terminate nicely, or be forced out. Is there anyway to kill a process that root can't kill with -9 besides rebooting the box? Ed From mikeaw at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 11:10:25 2005 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Thu Oct 6 09:44:27 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0510060810r7d0124bai22113c901f7ca4b8@mail.gmail.com> Othniel, Thank you for you explanation of what is going on. I believe that the primary source of confusion has been the lack of simple communication between the members and the officers. We, the members, only see out-of-date web pages and we've seen these for a while and have voiced our opinions about the situation. Us members aren't aware of the server details, the details of the situation with Rackspace, etc. But us members shouldn't have reason to know those details -- that's supposed to be the officer's concern. The problem from my point of view is that when a concern about the web site was raised it seemed that we were given excuses for the problem, such as that so-and-so was really busy and couldn't get around to it or that the server wasn't a very important part of SATLUG or whatever. There were those who offered to help out, but there were no responses of the inner circle of SATLUG. Time passes and us members see nothing different, and so we complain again and offer to help again and get the same excuses again and the cycle repeats. Given the server situation, what is the timeline for having the new SATLUG server going? Is this timeline something that we can speed up either by volunteering to help out with the server directly or by volunteering for other tasks that'd leave you more free to work on the server issue? (We already know Chuck has too much work...) As for what will be done with the server, several good ideas have been floated. Is that a conversation that we can have now? Can we go ahead and plan what to do with the new server while it's getting ready so that once it is deployed we can hit the ground running? -Mike From mikeaw at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 11:20:40 2005 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Thu Oct 6 09:54:43 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process In-Reply-To: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> The pine session is already dead, it's just that the parent process hasn't noticed so it is still listed. If the original parent dies leaving the child, the child is inherited by init, which seems to have happened here. There might be a creative way of sending a signal to init itself that'd clean things up, but it's been so long I don't remember what the trick was. -Mike On 10/6/05, Ed Coates wrote: > Hi all, > > Hope that someone can help me out with this. I logged into my box remotely > and was running screen with pine up in one virtual screen and running some > other processes in another from my hotel room. I left for a bit, and upon > coming back, I realized that my connection had locked. So I re-established > my internet connection and logged back into the server to find that my > screen sessions had locked up also, so I killed screen, but the pine session > detached and won't die. It now has a parent id of 1 (the init process) and > no matter what I've done, either as my regular account, or root, it won't > terminate nicely, or be forced out. > > Is there anyway to kill a process that root can't kill with -9 besides > rebooting the box? > > Ed > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > From bdubbs at swbell.net Thu Oct 6 11:35:22 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:09:17 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> References: <20051002154917.37d2e083.adam@npjh.com> <001001c5c7d1$4e863e00$92bae604@aaron> <20051003150946.b48bca28.adam@npjh.com> <4341BBFC.5050305@cis.sac.accd.edu> <24b598f60510052157s796f5e9as16f0672e239503dc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4345443A.3000401@swbell.net> Othniel Graichen wrote: > Please understand that an upgrade of the SATLUG server's hardware > is the first priority. I'm sorry but I don't understand this. What is the capacity of the server? The LFS server is a 750MHz system with 512M ram. It hosts about 20 mailing lists, including spamassain, svn and bugzilla for all the LFS projects, the main web server, rebuilds all the LFS books at least twice a day, and still works fine. What is the capacity of the SATLUG server and what processes does it run that consume all its resources? BTW, I ran RHEL on a system with 256MB ram and performance was terrible due to swapping. I changed to another system and it was fine. Do we really have a hardware problem or is it a configuration problem? -- Bruce From solinym at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 11:49:59 2005 From: solinym at gmail.com (Travis H.) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:23:58 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process In-Reply-To: <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: kill -s HUP 1 Normally init reaps zombies immediately though. -- http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B From mikeaw at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 12:10:33 2005 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:44:35 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process In-Reply-To: References: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0510060910g743ee390r4ec02c18ee56e67f@mail.gmail.com> > kill -s HUP 1 Oh, yeah. How in the world did I forget that? It's not even noon and it's already been a long day. :-p > Normally init reaps zombies immediately though. Usually init will take care of it, but if a zombie hangs around, it's usually stuck in a device driver close routine. Remember that the only real problem having zombies is that they use up pids. All of the resources and memory used are already freed and it's only that the parent process didn't acknowledge the completion of the process. I usually don't worry about them unless there's a large number of them. -Mike On 10/6/05, Travis H. wrote: > kill -s HUP 1 > > Normally init reaps zombies immediately though. > -- > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- > GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B > From rct at gherkin.frus.com Thu Oct 6 12:12:02 2005 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:46:01 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <4345443A.3000401@swbell.net> "from Bruce Dubbs at Oct 6, 2005 10:35:22 am" Message-ID: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Bruce Dubbs wrote: > I'm sorry but I don't understand this... > (...) > Do we really have a hardware problem or is it a configuration problem? Hardware: disk space. This goes above and beyond simple l_user management such as instituting disk quotas to keep the packrats at bay. Archival of list postings is assumed to be a desirable thing, as well as being able to hang onto more than a week's worth of system logging information, and we're approaching the limit of what the hardware can handle. The available space situation has been a flashing amber light for the past several years, and it hasn't been particularly noticable to the general membership only because of the DAILY maintenance activies of Chuck and friends. A recommendation for what it's worth... There's room in the case for another spindle, so add one until more permanent arrangements for upgraded hardware can be made. Now, here are the difficulties in what sounds like a simple idea... (1) the disk drive: who's gonna donate one, or will SATLUG somehow pay for one? (2) installation: someone's gotta make arrangements with Rackspace to powerdown the server (all of this coordinated through list postings so the membership doesn't have a large brown mammal when it occurs), then drive downtown to the Rackspace data center to either do the disk installation on premises or physically take possession of the box to do same. If the disk installation can't happen more or less on location, arrangements have to be made to deliver the server back to Rackspace. Item (2) has to be handled by an authorized representative of SATLUG (as opposed to simply a willing volunteer with enough time and ability to perform the task). The inconvenience of it all is at least part of the reason why it hasn't already happened. In other words, it was originally thought easiest/better to limp along until the move to a hosted solution could be made. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From oracle.nine at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 12:14:01 2005 From: oracle.nine at gmail.com (oracle nine) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:47:52 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] the evil bit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43454D49.3080007@gmail.com> lol... the evil bit ROCKS. Im going to use my NAT to set it on every packet that leaves my network!! Travis H. wrote: > Wow, my job as a network defender is easier than I thought, all I've > got to do is filter packets which set the evil bit: > > http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3514.txt > > -- > http://www.lightconsulting.com/~travis/ -><- > GPG fingerprint: 50A1 15C5 A9DE 23B9 ED98 C93E 38E9 204A 94C2 641B > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > From bdubbs at swbell.net Thu Oct 6 12:21:50 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:55:46 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] the evil bit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43454F1E.5020907@swbell.net> Travis H. wrote: > Wow, my job as a network defender is easier than I thought, all I've > got to do is filter packets which set the evil bit: > > http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc3514.txt I'm not sure if this was posted tongue-in-cheek or not, but you did notice the date of the rfc, right? -- Bruce From bdubbs at swbell.net Thu Oct 6 12:25:58 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Thu Oct 6 10:59:58 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] October's Presentation In-Reply-To: References: <4337214C.4020605@cis.sac.accd.edu> <368c881c0509251551f4113b3@mail.gmail.com> <31bde60e050925163454024569@mail.gmail.com> <4337512C.1060702@swbell.net> <433E85AB.2030905@swbell.net> <1128510508.3128.2.camel@phrodo> <4343E1DD.40901@swbell.net> Message-ID: <43455016.60003@swbell.net> Travis H. wrote: >>>>1) Development of a module. Without modules, to try a new rev of a >>>>module, you must reboot. >> >>Possibly. I have almost never have had to try out a new module without > > > I said development, as in "you're writing one". > > There's no call to recompile a whole kernel when you're making changes > to a single module. Agreed, but how many people are developing modules? If you are a developer, you must know what you are doing and don't need general advice. >>Also, unless you have a server, what is the big deal about rebooting? > > > It's slow? It requires saving all your work, and often, it requires > re-opening several windows? Again, this is specific primarily to developers. How often do regular users unload/reload a module? >>>>2) Memory usage. Modules may be paged out, whereas stuff built into >>>>the kernel is wired into physical memory until the system is shut >>>>down. >> >>Paging is done in 4K units, not by files. > > > So? All the 4k units of the kernel stay paged in. Otherwise, what > would you do if the paging-in code got paged out?. > > >>It doesn't make any difference here if it is a module or not. > > > You're wrong, so I'll repeat myself. Modules may be paged out. The > kernel may not. I'm not 100% sure about this. Memory is prevented from being swapped by a lock process. I can't find the reference right now, but I thought I read where portions of the kernel could be swapped. Of course certain critical parts can't be swapped and other parts, if allowed would lead to thrashing. > And the page size varies across architectures. x86 supports large > pages (2M and 4MB IIRC), but I don't think Linux makes use of them. > (Though it'd be nice if the kernel just used one large page). x86 supports 4M pages, but it can lead to problems with internal fragmentation and would take a relatively long time to page in and out. OTOH, if you have more than 4G RAM, you need it as x86 can't address memory > 4GB with 4K pages. Linux does support > 4GB ram, but it is not normally turned on. >>Even if your premise was >>correct, why would you care? How much system memory do you have? A low >>end system has 128M. What impact does 20K (or 100K) have? > > Your kernel is much larger than 20 or 100kB. > Plus there's TLB thrashing, among other things. We were talking about modules size, not the entire kernel. The kernels we see today in the 2.6 series run about 2M compressed and, since they are binary, expand to about 4M. Of course if you were a distro, you can't use a non-modular kernel as adding all modules to the kernel would make it *lots* larger (an interesting exercise). Again, if we were to swap out a 20K (or 100K) *module*, does it really make a significant difference in the RAM available for other processes. I assert that it does not. -- Bruce From bdubbs at swbell.net Thu Oct 6 12:35:04 2005 From: bdubbs at swbell.net (Bruce Dubbs) Date: Thu Oct 6 11:09:04 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <43455238.5080109@swbell.net> Bob Tracy wrote: > Bruce Dubbs wrote: > >>I'm sorry but I don't understand this... >>(...) >>Do we really have a hardware problem or is it a configuration problem? > > > Hardware: disk space. How much disk space do we have? Just checking the LFS site, we have 20G for the tasks I mentioned earlier. As far as keeping the system up, I'm sure we could temporarily port the system to a server at SAC, change the DNS entry, add the drive, do any need software updates, and finally change the DNS back. Note that tux.satlug.org is already hosted by SAC. Also, I am not adverse to storing things on my system at anduin.linuxfromscratch.org over at Server Beach. I have a 60G disk there and only have about 25G allocated! -- Bruce From gwillden at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 12:37:29 2005 From: gwillden at gmail.com (Greg Willden) Date: Thu Oct 6 11:11:29 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> References: <4345443A.3000401@swbell.net> <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <345e55a50510060937s736a3e9aj7d0f9de3d565ba2c@mail.gmail.com> Disk space? How big is this disk? 5GB? How many shell accounts are on this machine? Why are they *needed*? I can understand that back in the day before all this free online storage and massive Gmail accounts that it was nice to have an account on some remote server to store some things, but I just don't think this is needed anymore. Greg On 10/6/05, Bob Tracy wrote: > > > Hardware: disk space. > > This goes above and beyond simple l_user management such as instituting > disk quotas to keep the packrats at bay. Archival of list postings is > assumed to be a desirable thing, as well as being able to hang onto > more than a week's worth of system logging information, and we're > approaching the limit of what the hardware can handle. The available > space situation has been a flashing amber light for the past several > years, and it hasn't been particularly noticable to the general > membership only because of the DAILY maintenance activies of Chuck and > friends. > -- To know recursion, you must first know recursion. From mikeaw at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 13:54:51 2005 From: mikeaw at gmail.com (Mike Wallace) Date: Thu Oct 6 12:28:51 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <345e55a50510060937s736a3e9aj7d0f9de3d565ba2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <4345443A.3000401@swbell.net> <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> <345e55a50510060937s736a3e9aj7d0f9de3d565ba2c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4154519d0510061054q79030dc0i50495c08d426ac7e@mail.gmail.com> I had the same question about the shell accounts. On the SATLUG members page, there are 124 people listed with SATLUG email addresses. I don't know how many of those are in use, but that's still a good number of accounts. Why are the accounts needed? Back in the day, I could understand wanting an account in order to play around with Linux or wanting a place to store email, but there isn't any reason for that now. If someone wants to try out Linux, we can give them any number of live distributions rather than a shell account. Our personal computers probably have a lot more storage space than the SATLUG server and free services like GMail can store a large amount of mail. I don't see any reason for non-administrators to have accounts on the SATLUG server. The chosen few admins would have accounts of their own, but why should anyone else get one? If I remember the story correctly, the hack on the server was an inside job by someone who had an account on the machine. (Please correct me if I am wrong.) One big step in making the machine more secure is to purge the system of the general user accounts. What is the upside to the user accounts, especially given today's world where massive storage is easy and playing around with Linux only takes putting in a Live distro CD? -Mike On 10/6/05, Greg Willden wrote: > Disk space? How big is this disk? 5GB? > > How many shell accounts are on this machine? > Why are they *needed*? > > I can understand that back in the day before all this free online storage > and massive Gmail accounts that it was nice to have an account on some > remote server to store some things, but I just don't think this is needed > anymore. > From ted-sender-9916db at rathkopf.org Thu Oct 6 14:44:05 2005 From: ted-sender-9916db at rathkopf.org (Ted Rathkopf) Date: Thu Oct 6 13:18:05 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> (Bob Tracy's message of "Thu, 6 Oct 2005 11:12:02 -0500 (CDT)") References: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: Arrr, rct@gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) What ye be sayin'? > (1) the disk drive: who's gonna donate one, or will SATLUG somehow pay > for one? Pass the hat at the meeting. Money earmarked for a new drive. Watch spoofee or techbargains and get a deal. Here's a 160G drive for $40 at circuit city: http://snipurl.com/i7pz -- Ted Rathkopf From sbender at humana.com Thu Oct 6 14:51:56 2005 From: sbender at humana.com (Shawn Bender) Date: Thu Oct 6 13:26:04 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I hate to say this... I have a compaq Rack mount raid array with 14- 9.1GB drives for sale. Anybody? Shawn Bender Humana DSI The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain CONFIDENTIAL material. If you receive this material/information in error, please contact the sender and delete or destroy the material/information. From gwillden at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 14:52:27 2005 From: gwillden at gmail.com (Greg Willden) Date: Thu Oct 6 13:26:27 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: References: <20051006161202.ACB9BDBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Message-ID: <345e55a50510061152j61a92190v7ae440180543220d@mail.gmail.com> Sure that's one option but then you still have the downtime. The quickest solution is to remove all shell accounts except for those that need them for administrative purposes. That should free up some space on that 20GB drive. Why hasn't that been done already? Greg On 10/6/05, Ted Rathkopf wrote: > > Arrr, rct@gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) > What ye be sayin'? > > > (1) the disk drive: who's gonna donate one, or will SATLUG somehow pay > > for one? > > Pass the hat at the meeting. Money earmarked for a new drive. Watch > spoofee or techbargains and get a deal. > > Here's a 160G drive for $40 at circuit city: > > http://snipurl.com/i7pz > > > -- > Ted Rathkopf > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > -- To know recursion, you must first know recursion. From edcoates at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 15:17:54 2005 From: edcoates at gmail.com (Ed Coates) Date: Thu Oct 6 13:51:53 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process In-Reply-To: <4154519d0510060910g743ee390r4ec02c18ee56e67f@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060910g743ee390r4ec02c18ee56e67f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8ee65edd0510061217v25fb0b5aja1060c25587377ce@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/05, Mike Wallace wrote: > > > kill -s HUP 1 > > Oh, yeah. How in the world did I forget that? It's not even noon and > it's already been a long day. :-p > > > Normally init reaps zombies immediately though. > > Usually init will take care of it, but if a zombie hangs around, it's > usually stuck in a device driver close routine. Remember that the > only real problem having zombies is that they use up pids. All of the > resources and memory used are already freed and it's only that the > parent process didn't acknowledge the completion of the process. I > usually don't worry about them unless there's a large number of them. > > -Mike > Well, recycling init didn't do it, now on to other issues. I was doing an emerge -u world on this gentoo system and the server just bogged down to a standstill. Things are being run, but it might take 2 or three mins for the ls command to appear on the terminal and execute. Fun fun fun lol Guess I'll have to reboot when I return. Thanks for all the responses Ed From jesse at liberto.org Thu Oct 6 11:10:47 2005 From: jesse at liberto.org (Jesse Gonzalez) Date: Thu Oct 6 14:44:32 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process In-Reply-To: <8ee65edd0510061217v25fb0b5aja1060c25587377ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060910g743ee390r4ec02c18ee56e67f@mail.gmail.com> <8ee65edd0510061217v25fb0b5aja1060c25587377ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <43453E77.5020507@liberto.org> Look into PORTAGE_NICENESS in your /etc/make.conf file. ~jesse Ed Coates wrote: > On 10/6/05, Mike Wallace wrote: > >>>kill -s HUP 1 >> >>Oh, yeah. How in the world did I forget that? It's not even noon and >>it's already been a long day. :-p >> >> >>>Normally init reaps zombies immediately though. >> >>Usually init will take care of it, but if a zombie hangs around, it's >>usually stuck in a device driver close routine. Remember that the >>only real problem having zombies is that they use up pids. All of the >>resources and memory used are already freed and it's only that the >>parent process didn't acknowledge the completion of the process. I >>usually don't worry about them unless there's a large number of them. >> >>-Mike >> > > Well, recycling init didn't do it, now on to other issues. I was doing an > emerge -u world on this gentoo system and the server just bogged down to a > standstill. Things are being run, but it might take 2 or three mins for the > ls command to appear on the terminal and execute. Fun fun fun lol > > Guess I'll have to reboot when I return. > > Thanks for all the responses > > Ed > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug From rct at gherkin.frus.com Thu Oct 6 17:49:20 2005 From: rct at gherkin.frus.com (Bob Tracy) Date: Thu Oct 6 16:23:19 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Meetings In-Reply-To: <4154519d0510061054q79030dc0i50495c08d426ac7e@mail.gmail.com> "from Mike Wallace at Oct 6, 2005 12:54:51 pm" Message-ID: <20051006214920.B1BF8DBA1@gherkin.frus.com> Mike Wallace wrote: > I had the same question about the shell accounts. On the SATLUG > members page, there are 124 people listed with SATLUG email addresses. I'm reasonably certain most of those are aliases, but at the time I was an active SATLUG admin (many moons ago), there were several non-admin accounts. For all I know, they are still active. > I don't see any reason for non-administrators to have accounts on the > SATLUG server. At the moment, I don't have a counter-argument and I'm not looking for one :-). Lest anyone suspect otherwise, I really don't have a dog in this fight. A few years ago, I might have, but as I mentioned in an earlier posting, real life has a nasty way of intruding on things that might otherwise have priority. My hope would be that those who care will get together (virtually or otherwise -- cold beer might help), formulate some kind of plan, and execute it. Maintaining the status quo got us where we are today, and while I was complicit in the attitude that was the best option at the time, it allowed folks to become complacent because the true severity of the problem was being masked. Looking at the list of officers for 2005, I see several good people whose hands I've shaken over the years. As a friend, I recommend for their consideration the formulation of a "mission statement", or at least something that says what SATLUG intends to be. At various times in the history of the organization, we've been (a) a social club. (b) Linux proselytes. (c) Linux proselytizers :-). (d) a trade-show "vendor". (e) Linux technical support. (f) hardware reviewers. (g) distro reviewers. (h) sysadmin "best practices" forum. ... etc. ... you get the idea. Main thing is, decide what you are (which clearly can be more than one of the above), then decide what resources are needed to support those incarnations. Don't spread yourselves too thin, especially when that means you're duplicating functions being performed well by other groups. Better to do a few things well than many things with mediocrity. F'rinstance, forget about making various distributions available on the SATLUG server (this idea comes up periodically): *do* provide links to them on our website, possibly with local value-added commentary about perceived strengths/weaknesses. -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Tracy WTO + WIPO = DMCA? http://www.anti-dmca.org rct@frus.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From edcoates at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 08:16:16 2005 From: edcoates at gmail.com (Ed Coates) Date: Fri Oct 7 06:50:23 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] Killing the invincible process In-Reply-To: <43453E77.5020507@liberto.org> References: <8ee65edd0510060741g23fee6e1sd5da3a95d3c9ef90@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060820x7cceee4pa0663219cf4e446e@mail.gmail.com> <4154519d0510060910g743ee390r4ec02c18ee56e67f@mail.gmail.com> <8ee65edd0510061217v25fb0b5aja1060c25587377ce@mail.gmail.com> <43453E77.5020507@liberto.org> Message-ID: <8ee65edd0510070516i27d2db89r437e40dbafc9f409@mail.gmail.com> On 10/6/05, Jesse Gonzalez wrote: > Look into PORTAGE_NICENESS in your /etc/make.conf file. > > ~jesse Jesse, Thanks for the tip there. I'll keep that in mind, but I'm not sure if that would have helped. Somewhere along the way, the server picked up a load of about 30 or so. The last time I saw this was when I was having problem with DMA not being on, but I haven't had that problem in a while. Wonder if it could be a memory issue. I was able to kill the emerge and found the server was almost complete using swap while it still had about 256MB of memory free. The issues seems to have been that it was hitting the disk hard while not utilizing memory very well. Ed From bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 11:46:31 2005 From: bartonekdragracing at yahoo.com (Alex Bartonek) Date: Fri Oct 7 12:20:29 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] streaming video server In-Reply-To: <4342CCCE.3020601@cyber-wizard.com> Message-ID: <20051007174631.23510.qmail@web54303.mail.yahoo.com> I know this is probably possible with freecast but I want to ask anyway.. I bought the NHL Center Ice package from TWC. I should be able to stream that signal out to the net right? Anyone doing something like this? -Alex ______________________________________________________ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ From jeremymann at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 14:03:50 2005 From: jeremymann at gmail.com (Jeremy Mann) Date: Fri Oct 7 12:37:48 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] streaming video server In-Reply-To: <20051007174631.23510.qmail@web54303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4342CCCE.3020601@cyber-wizard.com> <20051007174631.23510.qmail@web54303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79ec289f0510071103s855387axf6bfe624f8887b31@mail.gmail.com> Alex, this is probably the easiest thing to do with ffmpeg and ffserver. The cool thing is ffserver will stream several formats at once. I think the default is MPEG4, Windows ASX, Real v1.0 and MJPEG at the same time. There are multiple sections for audio streams, flash streaming, etc.. so just read the ffserver.cfg file to understand all the options. You should be up and running in no time! On 10/7/05, Alex Bartonek wrote: > > I know this is probably possible with freecast but I > want to ask anyway.. > > I bought the NHL Center Ice package from TWC. I > should be able to stream that signal out to the net > right? Anyone doing something like this? > > -Alex > > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Yahoo! for Good > Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. > http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/ > > _______________________________________________ > SATLUG mailing list > SATLUG@satlug.org > http://alamo.satlug.org/mailman/listinfo/satlug > -- Jeremy From jtiner at gvtc.com Fri Oct 7 14:07:37 2005 From: jtiner at gvtc.com (James Tiner) Date: Fri Oct 7 12:41:35 2005 Subject: [SATLUG] streaming video server In-Reply-To: <20051007174631.23510.qmail@web54303.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20051007174631.23510.qmail@web54303.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1128708457.3743.6.camel@linux.tiner.org> Alex, That would be an interesting exercise, but I would have to caution you that this kind of activity probably won't fall under fair use. You should consider consulting an attorney before re-transmitting over the web material copyrighted by the NHL . Just for the record, IANAL, nor do I know anything really about the law (or anything else if you happen to ask either of my ex-wives). I'm just trying to be helpful. On Fri, 2005-10-07 at 10:46 -0700, Alex Bartonek wrote: > I know this is probably possible with freecast but I > want to ask anyway.. > > I bought the NHL Center Ice package from TWC. I > should be able to stream that signal out to the net > right?